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	<title>Comments on: Debunking the Japanese sentence order myth</title>
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	<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/</link>
	<description>Nihongo.3Yen.com - Japanese Language</description>
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		<title>By: Tae Kim</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>Tae Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Dec 2005 09:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/#comment-104</guid>
		<description>The final verb (including implied state-of-being) is the main focus of every Japanese sentence. Therefore, as I mentioned in my post, the further you get from the verb, the more extraneous the information becomes.  

Particles have natural levels of focus. For instance, が is very strong especially for questions because that&#039;s what you&#039;re trying to identify. Emphasis can also be changed by tone of course. But ordering also plays a subtle role.

For example
ここにあったケーキを誰が食べた？
誰がここにあったケーキを食べた？

While the main focus is on 誰が (the heart of the question), the emphasis on 誰が is slightly weakened in the second sentence due to the time lag to the main verb.

That is the only consistent difference in sentence ordering that I can think of. I suppose there&#039;s also elements of style to consider. For instance, in most cases it&#039;s probably better to introduce a new topic at the beginning of the sentence. But I think that&#039;s more in the realm of common sense, style, and composition rather than language learning. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The final verb (including implied state-of-being) is the main focus of every Japanese sentence. Therefore, as I mentioned in my post, the further you get from the verb, the more extraneous the information becomes.  </p>
<p>Particles have natural levels of focus. For instance, が is very strong especially for questions because that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re trying to identify. Emphasis can also be changed by tone of course. But ordering also plays a subtle role.</p>
<p>For example<br />
ここにあったケーキを誰が食べた？<br />
誰がここにあったケーキを食べた？</p>
<p>While the main focus is on 誰が (the heart of the question), the emphasis on 誰が is slightly weakened in the second sentence due to the time lag to the main verb.</p>
<p>That is the only consistent difference in sentence ordering that I can think of. I suppose there&#8217;s also elements of style to consider. For instance, in most cases it&#8217;s probably better to introduce a new topic at the beginning of the sentence. But I think that&#8217;s more in the realm of common sense, style, and composition rather than language learning.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/#comment-102</guid>
		<description>The starting assumption is that if the form is different, the function is different. In English, the active and passive versions of a sentence &quot;mean&quot; the same thing, but one does not just chose one of them randomly. In particular, the need to keep the topic of a conversation or discourse constant can drive the use of a passive. It is a way to control what the subject of a sentence is.

I would similarly guess that which argument is placed first in Japanese is dependent on this sort of consideration, which is called &quot;information structure&quot; in linguistics. I&#039;m not saying I know exactly what factors Japanese people take into consideration when they chose to have 犬が first or 木を first. However, the choice cannot be random, and thus the sentences are different. This means that in Japanese, sentence order -does- matter.

Some people would contend that there is an &quot;unmarked,&quot; or &quot;least special&quot; way to use a transitive verb in Japanese (assuming that you leave in all of the nouns). That order would be SOV. In English, it is SVO. As to whether this is true or not, I&#039;m not sure, but it&#039;s disingenuous to say that any linguist claims that -the- Japanese sentence order is SOV. Evidence for this may come from subordinate clauses, which may more frequently prefer the SOV order, because information structure does not make demands on subordinate clauses - thus the unmarked order can emerge. It certainly happens in English: 

I gave that toy to my cousin.
To my cousin, I gave that toy.
The person who I gave that toy to
*The person who that toy, I gave to.

Putting the object in front is fine in the main sentence (forming an OSVO sentence), but not okay within a relative clause. The Japanese example I gave above is similar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The starting assumption is that if the form is different, the function is different. In English, the active and passive versions of a sentence &#8220;mean&#8221; the same thing, but one does not just chose one of them randomly. In particular, the need to keep the topic of a conversation or discourse constant can drive the use of a passive. It is a way to control what the subject of a sentence is.</p>
<p>I would similarly guess that which argument is placed first in Japanese is dependent on this sort of consideration, which is called &#8220;information structure&#8221; in linguistics. I&#8217;m not saying I know exactly what factors Japanese people take into consideration when they chose to have 犬が first or 木を first. However, the choice cannot be random, and thus the sentences are different. This means that in Japanese, sentence order -does- matter.</p>
<p>Some people would contend that there is an &#8220;unmarked,&#8221; or &#8220;least special&#8221; way to use a transitive verb in Japanese (assuming that you leave in all of the nouns). That order would be SOV. In English, it is SVO. As to whether this is true or not, I&#8217;m not sure, but it&#8217;s disingenuous to say that any linguist claims that -the- Japanese sentence order is SOV. Evidence for this may come from subordinate clauses, which may more frequently prefer the SOV order, because information structure does not make demands on subordinate clauses &#8211; thus the unmarked order can emerge. It certainly happens in English: </p>
<p>I gave that toy to my cousin.<br />
To my cousin, I gave that toy.<br />
The person who I gave that toy to<br />
*The person who that toy, I gave to.</p>
<p>Putting the object in front is fine in the main sentence (forming an OSVO sentence), but not okay within a relative clause. The Japanese example I gave above is similar.</p>
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		<title>By: Tae Kim</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>Tae Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Actually, you didn&#039;t state any reasons why they are different, you just said that they are. I&#039;m interested in hearing your reasons on how and why they are different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, you didn&#8217;t state any reasons why they are different, you just said that they are. I&#8217;m interested in hearing your reasons on how and why they are different.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2005 05:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/#comment-99</guid>
		<description>My mistake: the sentences should have been

犬が木を見た
木を犬が見た

Everything I said in the above post applies to these two sentences - they are different for the reasons I stated. You cannot just change the word order whenever you feel like it - different orders have different functions in a conversation. 

And everything else in my comments still stants wrt Japanese word order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My mistake: the sentences should have been</p>
<p>犬が木を見た<br />
木を犬が見た</p>
<p>Everything I said in the above post applies to these two sentences &#8211; they are different for the reasons I stated. You cannot just change the word order whenever you feel like it &#8211; different orders have different functions in a conversation. </p>
<p>And everything else in my comments still stants wrt Japanese word order.</p>
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		<title>By: Tae Kim</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator>Tae Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2005 02:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/#comment-98</guid>
		<description>犬が木を見た
木が犬を見た

The two sentences are totally different because you switched the particles not just the ordering of the words. Remember, the particles define the function of the word so they are the most important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>犬が木を見た<br />
木が犬を見た</p>
<p>The two sentences are totally different because you switched the particles not just the ordering of the words. Remember, the particles define the function of the word so they are the most important.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:25:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/#comment-96</guid>
		<description>It is true that the categorization of a language as SOV (or SVO, or OVS, or whatever) is at best a gross generalization, and may not even function well in the description of the language, let alone teaching it. However, it is deceptive to say that Japanese has no word order other than that it is verb-final (and head-final, in general). For instance, 

犬が木を見た
木が犬を見た

are not the same sentence - that is, they are used in different situations with different background assumptions (about who in the conversation is important, who is being talked about, and so on).

Also, in so-called subordinate clauses (aka noun-modifying clauses), word order is often more fixed. It sounds odd to me to have something like

俺のコンピュータをその人が修理した日

This sounds better: その人が俺のコンピュータを修理した日. At least, in an &#039;out of the blue&#039; context, the first sentence sounds unnatural. You don&#039;t have to say that Japanese is -always- SOV, which it&#039;s not, just that SOV is the unmarked, non-special word order. It can be mutated according to conversational needs. Separate principles will let you omit the subject or object if you want to, but if you did want to say them, you&#039;d have to know where to put them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is true that the categorization of a language as SOV (or SVO, or OVS, or whatever) is at best a gross generalization, and may not even function well in the description of the language, let alone teaching it. However, it is deceptive to say that Japanese has no word order other than that it is verb-final (and head-final, in general). For instance, </p>
<p>犬が木を見た<br />
木が犬を見た</p>
<p>are not the same sentence &#8211; that is, they are used in different situations with different background assumptions (about who in the conversation is important, who is being talked about, and so on).</p>
<p>Also, in so-called subordinate clauses (aka noun-modifying clauses), word order is often more fixed. It sounds odd to me to have something like</p>
<p>俺のコンピュータをその人が修理した日</p>
<p>This sounds better: その人が俺のコンピュータを修理した日. At least, in an &#8216;out of the blue&#8217; context, the first sentence sounds unnatural. You don&#8217;t have to say that Japanese is -always- SOV, which it&#8217;s not, just that SOV is the unmarked, non-special word order. It can be mutated according to conversational needs. Separate principles will let you omit the subject or object if you want to, but if you did want to say them, you&#8217;d have to know where to put them.</p>
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		<title>By: Tae Kim</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Tae Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2005 01:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The myth is that the basic Japanese sentence is SOV when it really is V. The main difference from learning English SVO is that once you &quot;master&quot; SOV in Japanese, you don&#039;t move on the more complicated sentences. Instead, you have to go back, forget the whole SVO mess and correct your way of thinking. Otherwise, you stick the subject into every sentence like I mentioned above. I&#039;ve seen it all the time in beginners and it&#039;s unnatural. If you worry about sentence ordering in Japanese, you&#039;ve fallen for the myth. There is only ONE sentence order: the verb (or state-of-being) comes last. Everything else is nesting and linking of subordinate clauses.

Please read the comments above for more clarification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The myth is that the basic Japanese sentence is SOV when it really is V. The main difference from learning English SVO is that once you &#8220;master&#8221; SOV in Japanese, you don&#8217;t move on the more complicated sentences. Instead, you have to go back, forget the whole SVO mess and correct your way of thinking. Otherwise, you stick the subject into every sentence like I mentioned above. I&#8217;ve seen it all the time in beginners and it&#8217;s unnatural. If you worry about sentence ordering in Japanese, you&#8217;ve fallen for the myth. There is only ONE sentence order: the verb (or state-of-being) comes last. Everything else is nesting and linking of subordinate clauses.</p>
<p>Please read the comments above for more clarification.</p>
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		<title>By: sore wo shiteru boku da</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>sore wo shiteru boku da</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Actually for me... &quot;Myth&quot; is such a wierd way of describing the SOV sentence structure... I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a &quot;myth&quot; per se, i just think its a very siplified version of a very basic japanese sentence structuure... when I learned english when i was a kid in the philippines... teachers taught me the SVO eng sent structure. But once you master it, you can go to different complications of the language like the transitive/intransitive verbs and such. For example... &quot;Im eating at the restaurant&quot; this sentence is understood... i don&#039;t say... &quot;oh! i broke the SVO myth cause i didnt put an object!&quot;... in japanese you can/may say &quot;boku... restoran de tabeteru.&quot; conversational japanese is harder to explain so language ppl created the SOV sentence structure for the sake of teaching beginners... i don&#039;t think it&#039;s a myth at all...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually for me&#8230; &#8220;Myth&#8221; is such a wierd way of describing the SOV sentence structure&#8230; I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a &#8220;myth&#8221; per se, i just think its a very siplified version of a very basic japanese sentence structuure&#8230; when I learned english when i was a kid in the philippines&#8230; teachers taught me the SVO eng sent structure. But once you master it, you can go to different complications of the language like the transitive/intransitive verbs and such. For example&#8230; &#8220;Im eating at the restaurant&#8221; this sentence is understood&#8230; i don&#8217;t say&#8230; &#8220;oh! i broke the SVO myth cause i didnt put an object!&#8221;&#8230; in japanese you can/may say &#8220;boku&#8230; restoran de tabeteru.&#8221; conversational japanese is harder to explain so language ppl created the SOV sentence structure for the sake of teaching beginners&#8230; i don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a myth at all&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Pomax</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Pomax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>heh... All too true.

I&#039;d rephrase it to just 
&quot;Myth: English sentences are SVO and Japanese sentences are SOV&quot;. Maybe followed by &quot;and smack your teacher if they keep claiming this&quot; maybe &gt;_&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heh&#8230; All too true.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d rephrase it to just<br />
&#8220;Myth: English sentences are SVO and Japanese sentences are SOV&#8221;. Maybe followed by &#8220;and smack your teacher if they keep claiming this&#8221; maybe >_></p>
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		<title>By: Tae Kim</title>
		<link>http://nihongo.3yen.com/2005-02-16/debunking-the-japanese-sentence-order-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Tae Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I see the point you are trying to make. I&#039;m not too sure how effective the SVO sentence structure is for teaching English but many sentences do follow that structure. For instance, most of the sentences of this very comment follow that basic strcture. 

However, in Japanese, teaching SOV causes nothing but trouble. I see it all the time, people saying 私は for every sentence about themselves. Or the confusion when teacher say using the polite word for &quot;you&quot; （あなた） is impolite. Students don&#039;t realize that most sentences in coversations don&#039;t even have a subject. So perhaps I should rephrase &quot;myth&quot; to &quot;a horrible teaching method that should never be used but nevertheless is taught at countless number of places&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see the point you are trying to make. I&#8217;m not too sure how effective the SVO sentence structure is for teaching English but many sentences do follow that structure. For instance, most of the sentences of this very comment follow that basic strcture. </p>
<p>However, in Japanese, teaching SOV causes nothing but trouble. I see it all the time, people saying 私は for every sentence about themselves. Or the confusion when teacher say using the polite word for &#8220;you&#8221; （あなた） is impolite. Students don&#8217;t realize that most sentences in coversations don&#8217;t even have a subject. So perhaps I should rephrase &#8220;myth&#8221; to &#8220;a horrible teaching method that should never be used but nevertheless is taught at countless number of places&#8221;.</p>
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